comMy choice for preflop study was the Monker Solver, but it is by far the most difficult Solver to use. The heads-up duel between Doug Polk and Daniel Negreanu has become a touchstone for arguments about old-school and new-school approaches to poker. 9 Tutorial Game Theory Optimal and Exploitative Strategy Preflop and Postflop Simulations Hold'em, Omaha and Omaha-8 No Limit, Pot Limit and Fixed Limit Antes and Straddles Cash Games,. Opinions will differ, but as a general rule you probably want at least 20 iterations to start seeing meaningful results. 5x and bb defends but i would always get error: out of memory? This is the current specs of my computer -Installed RAM 32. Train with the best at the world's leading poker strategy community. But in order to maximize the value they can provide, it's important to have a structure to study s. So a few questions. com email: ElitePokerGuide@outlook. An unconfirmed hero (Brickell, Etienne, Psi) Voting closed. How a Poker Solver Works. A Monker Solver Breakdown | Run It Once. Learn exactly how wide Volatile Fish open and defend preflop, and which bet/raise sizings to target. The latter figure making OOPs. HU spot. Quote: Originally Posted by MonkerWare. We’ll also limit the flop bet sizing to our villain’s true action of a 1⁄2 pot bet, but we’ll allow a few more bet sizings, ranging from 33% to 150% pot, on the turn and river. support@monkerware. Addressing Coaching Services, Database Usage, and Datamining Concerns with Transparency and Integrity. e. Hi guys i just bought monker solver and was trying to do a simple preflop 6m sim where utg raises 2. You can't exclude a live player in a multi-way game tree if you want to know the EV for a multi-way game. Introducing GVISION: The Best Poker Solver Program for Real-Time Assistance and Strategy Optimization. Don't care about graphics card. With GTO+, you can rely on mathematics to always know how to play in any. 25 4-bet. Which is the Best Poker Solver? PioSolver Course - Endboss Package Everything you need to know about PIO $. Thanks for any input. It is the only option listed that is capable of doing multi-way postflop solves though these take ages Browse and Train with 195,000+PLO Solutions. Unlock Your True Potential. Exclusive BEST POKER COACHING HAND2NOTE MASTERCLASS. SELLING Poker Programs & Poker Courses for CHEAP RATES!! Best Prices For The Best Courses! Any Proofs Greetings! TO ORDER A FULL VERSION OF POKER VIDEO COURSE WRITE: Skype: Elite Poker Guide in search (or live:. support@monkerware. What assumptions did you use? Postflop Rake is equivalent to PokerStars 500 Zoom. Many professional online poker players’ tool-kits also feature poker solvers such as PioSolver, Simple Postflop, Monker Solver and GTO+. Range ("A1") Open ThisWorkbook. 47. Understanding The Equity Of Multi-Way Pots. r/poker. 1. support@monkerware. • 28 days ago. I have been working with some PLO soft wares but I haven't worked directly on Monker Solver yet. The '-Xmx' value determines the amount of RAM addressible by Monkersolver. I am trying to run some Monker Solver sims PLO8 sims and would like to choose some basic common sizes PREFLOP PLO and PLO8 6max cash : Just use 100%POT open preflop and on 100%I really like PLO calc as a range explorer tool, because Monker is pretty bare bones, so I'd like to be able to grab the ranges for both players on certain streets and then analyze them myself inside of PLO calc (i. Learn how professional poker players use solvers, buy ranges and rent powerful servers!Richard Gryko aka raconteur discusses the nuance of using a solver, the type of information that can be gleaned from running simulations and the need to establish a. Since Pro Poker Tools website is down I was trying to find full PPT Syntax somewhere else, this is what I found if you have more please add. Upload your HHs and instantly see your GTO mistakes. pure capsaicin. exeをダウンロードしてく. Let's overview simple example of preflop calculation with rake. Saulo grabs his morning cup of coffee and begins the start of a new work week with a fresh session at the $500 Zoom tables. . Commercial usage please contact [email protected] Solver, generally speaking, hates cards below a 5 in your opening hand. My understanding is that if playing GTO the sum of EV should be close to 0. Fully customizable betting tree. com Solver is a Corporate Performance Management (CPM) solution that harnesses the cloud to consolidate data from your ERP and other key sources to deliver crucial insights and streamline planning and reporting. r/poker • 9 days ago. In Texas Holdem Poker there are 1755 strategically meaningful flops that represent 22100 possible flops. Basic version of PioSolver costs $249. Q: How close are the ranges to the solver? A: The ranges are almost identical. Manual import: load your preflop or postflop ranges directly from Monkersolver into PLO Range Explorer to use our exclusive features. 2 and 0. Load any of our simplified presolved scenarios in your browser and browse and action and frequency for each hand in range. A: The stimulus set used in the preliminary test of Experiment 1; the set includes three filled shapes and three compound figures. The best place to learn and talk poker with an ever-growing community. 5x and bb defends but i would always get error: out of memory? This is the current specs of my computer -Installed RAM 32. Originally Posted by ZenFish. You can use my ranges, or I could run a sim relatively quickly. 00. adept. Create and promote branded videos, host live events and webinars, and more. Tree builder: Solution viewer: Features; Equilab (free) PokerRanger ($79) If you’d like to calculate equity on the go, check out Poker Cruncher ($12. In the past month, Contabo upgraded it's server offerings to include dedicated servers with AMD's EPYC 7282 CPU. The results were then correlated to give you. I understand that I need a very considerable amount of RAM, I heard that I need up to 512 GB to do complex calculations and get the best odds in almost all cases. Jnandez package is amazing value and is the only real option if you want to start working with monker. The PLO Range Explorer, formerly known as PLO Trainer Desktop App is a downloadable Windows-only software with advanced range analysis features. Try it for free. So, wrong approach of charging rake could lead to very. I already asked quite a few people regarding this topic. This innovation also allowed multiway preflop solving, a considerable step forward for us 6max grinders as. r/poker. . . 1. The Crossword Solver finds answers to classic crosswords and cryptic crossword puzzles. PLO Trainer Tutorial. Host virtual town halls, onboard and train employees, collaborate efficiently. Julian Kopanskiy aka ki11u shows you how to use PIO Solver's Node Lock feature to maximally exploit players who deviate substantially from GTO strategies. This approach comes in an effort to give their players as much of an edge. Example I do a plo pre flop short stack size 10bb hu sim and give both players two bet sizes 33% and 100% and a small 50% and pot reraise option. Someone with MonkerSolver experience who knows how true this is of the required RAM. I bought monker solver, so is monker viewer just an easy to see way to show you the results of sims you have run? PioSOLVER. Beyond 50 you there typically isn't much benefit to continue solving. Monkersolver Preflop solution pack for 8Max 10,15,20,25,30,40,50,60bb,80bb and 100bb MTT quantity. 6bb (500NL Zoom Rake) Sizes: 2. Richard Gryko aka raconteur discusses the nuance of using a solver, the type of information that can be gleaned from running simulations and the need to establish a game plan as opposed to just running a sim and seeing what you get. Top x % in PLO. l4j file to use 300. . When you wink at your opponent, carelessly throw your shades back on, rub your chest, then shove it in. Load any of our simplified presolved scenarios in your browser and browse and action and frequency for each hand in range. mkr solution file that I purchased and am requesting to load 2 streets (so including flop). . With Deepsolver all you need is access to a web browser. MonkerGuide. MonkerSolver. Liked by: 02-11-2017, 07:56 PM Antidote. 4,585. The '-Xmx' value determines the amount of RAM addressible by Monkersolver. com. You will want to monitor percentage changes in the strategies to see if the strategy is still changing in a meaningful way. Cutting Edge. Dawn, our team works very hard to provide our clients with beneficial services and positive service experiences. 3% of the starting pot depending on the solution type. MonkerSolver "Keep avg strategy on (streets)" Posted by FireGoblin Posted by FireGoblin posted in Vision GTO Trainer. It uses similar tech to postflop solvers but uses a bunch of bucketing to generate preflop solutions. Volatile Fish Preflop Mass Database Analysis: Simple Strategies For Maximizing Win Rate Against Recreational Players. Getting accepted into a poker stable will get you the financial backing to play at higher stakes than your personal bankroll might allow. It can do preflop and postflop solving and supports PLO. If you want to use piosolver properly you'll probably have to import more accurate. 47. The program solves GTO strategies for the defined tree of bets and input ranges of two players in various postflop spots. MonkerWare. Double-click on the folder. It seems a lot of people swear by Monker, is it just the most GTO/in-depth solver available? PioSolver. We publish one new video every week on Monday! If you don’t have access, click here to become a member, or upgrade to a bundle. It includes the 4-Card PLO Trainer web app which runs in-browser and has different features. Also, you should set the number of GPU to 0 since your computer doesn't. Purchase MonkerSolver by signing up and logging in here. Is there any tool, preferably free, to visually show the top % in PLO or just tell me how high is the input hand in the top %? Personally, I have a problem visualising the x% range in PLO. com offers a full tutorial for MonkerSolver 2. You can compare the EVs of playing the two pure strategies here (100% flat vs 100% cap). Learn skills for shot-taking successfuly. 4. 1% to 0. 646 subscribers. With the introduction of GTO Wizard AI in 2023, it became the most efficient tool for learning GTO strategy. Pat Fusty & Fusty The Snowman. The key points when wondering how to play multiway pots in poker are to be aware of the actions all players take in the hand and how our hand stacks up against the combined. sh’. Black Box is broken into five video modules, and seven Monker Solver solution modules. 2. r/poker • Airball vs Berkey Megathread. Enter the length or pattern for better results. 9. Recording of consultation and written summary (including screenshots) of stat check and leaks. 25bb RFI, 7. Enter the length or pattern for better results. Preflop ranges are available for PioSolver, Monkersolver, MonkerViewer, and any other poker solver or range viewer compatible with these formats. Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site. In this video we guide you through downloading and accessing MonkerSolver Saved Runs. Browse GTO solutions. Browse and Train with 195,000+PLO Solutions. Timestamps:0:00 intro0:48 how much ram1:56 overview2:33 tree building5:08 variant 1 11:15 variant 214:27 removing nodes15:34 fold/call/allin19:01 node lockin. Whether you manage data in spreadsheets or pull it from diverse sources, Solver brings it all together in an easy-to-use platform that. POSTED May 27, 2019. Essentially, if you had to choose between two CPUs that were the same price, favour the one with higher clock speed and lower thread count over the lower clock speed and higher thread count one. Blog. Hello freinds, im from russia btw so sorry for bad eng) Im interested in new monker version. So 60bb would be 120sb and that is the stack size you would typically input when creating a game tree (120 if you want 60bbs). Simple Omaha - is the first nash equilibrium solver without any abstractions that allows to solve optimal strategies for Omaha on postflop. It is a web-based application that can be accessed from any computer with internet access. . Pio has slightly better scripting functionality (which is what I am mainly use it for anyway). Monkersolver EV. #n1. l4j file to use 300. Two holecards which only loses to hands in #n1. Solve Hold'em and Omaha from any street, with any number of players. Click the answer to find similar crossword clues . Covering No Limit Holdem Cash, MTT, ICM, Spin & Go, Hyper Turbo SnG and PLO poker. The PLO Range Explorer, formerly known as PLO Trainer Desktop App is a downloadable Windows-only software with advanced range analysis features. Learn to win at two highly profitable poker games: PLO cash games and PLO MTTs. 01. Features and Functionality: Breaking Down MonkerSolver vs PioSolver. 5. What is a PLO solver? Home > This PLO Solver Gives You the Optimal Preflop Strategy with Two. Now bulk calculations are available ("Jobs"). Note: These ranges were derived from a Monker Solver simulation using a $10/20 rake structure. Hey guys. POSTED Sep 30, 2021. MonkerSolver. 1. The name of the view will be the . Built-in library of GTO preflop ranges. 1755 flops is still a big number of flops which makes attempts to approximate preflop EV for chosen spots as well as upcoming. Piosolver,GTO+などポストフロップの戦略を計算するソフト MonkerやSimple preflopなどプリフロップの戦略を計算するソフト がある。Solverなんて偉そうな名前が付いているが事前に設定した戦略のEVを計算するだけの単なる計算機である。 これらの計算機がどのような過程を経て計算結果を出力している. Cory Mikesell tackles two completely separate topics having given both a lot of thought recently and in the first half of the videos he touches on using Monker Solver to model 5 card PLO situations and in the second half he turns the focus to adjusting to wide double barrel ranges. Preflop Strategy charts are available for PioSolver. . How to Setup Monkersolver on a Debian 10 (Linux) Server Using Contabo (AMD EPYC Q3 2020 Update) This is the Q3 2020 update to our Monkersolver server guide with Contabo. I can see, more or less, what hands to target, but I. Online math solver with free step by step solutions to algebra, calculus, and other math problems. The interface is a nightmare, and it's not supported by the developers. A Complete Guide to Poker Solvers. Of course,. View Profile Send Message Find Posts By MiamMiam Find Threads By MiamMiam. In addition, I would like to reset my password but I do not see an option for that. 00 at approximately 10 I/N. Fee has an easy call with his exact hand versus this size, but it's interesting to note that Monker Solver likes folding a massive 79. Thanks! 07-07-2023 , 05:37 PM. If you suspect file corruption may be the issue, I would recommend trying to re-export the ranges for Monkerviewer from the original file. PM me! comments sorted by Best Top New Controversial Q&A Add a Comment More posts you may like. Enter a Crossword Clue. 0GB Processor-AMD Ryzen 7 1700 Eight-Core Processor 3. Trusted by the Pros. Meaning: Problem Solver, Healer, Comfortable. These action probabilities are identical to those found on the Strategy page, but are presented as diagrams. You will see in the screenshot the results of the sim and the EV by position for 6 max. Any advice on how to proceed from here would be very much appreciated. postflop situations with 3 players or more). Subscribe. Many Git commands accept both tag and branch names, so creating this branch may cause unexpected behavior. A tutorial is given below. POSTED Jul 31, 2018. 1相比，它的优点如下：EV计算完全按照Solver的. 概述GTO+自V1. Cash out all of your rakeback and 50% of your poker profit each month at mid and high stakes. When we open-raise UTG, there are five people left to act in a 6-max game, with all but the SB and BB having positional advantage post-flop. GTO Wizard – Join Now For Free! Poker is getting more competitive by the day, and finding the extra edge where you can is much more important than it used to be. Simple Preflop will solve multiway preflop spots (the above solvers can't solve multiway). customized preflop or post flop sims. 中にMonkerSolverというフォルダが有るので開いてください。 MonkerSolverフォルダを開くと、↓のような画面になっていると思うので、一旦この状態で置いておいてください。 次に、このリンクからMonkerViewer. l4j. You can alter the thread count at run time to see if increasing it yields a higher. You can browse, download, or order custom preflop charts, sims, and files for your specific game and situation. I doubleclicked the software，the logo （icon）showed，and nothing happens. com Posted by RangeConverter . Unfortunately, given the level of information being processed by a solver, most smartphones aren’t powerful enough to run top solvers. Poker. Get started for free. We ran the sims for you so you didn’t have to, and simplified for the most optimal bet sizing and minimal bet sizing options, with minimal EV loss. Solve Hold'em and Omaha from any street, with any number of players. I also briefly use GTO+ Solver (which stems from CardRunners EV) to illustrate how to get a flo. 2. Yeah, editing the MonkerSolver. MonkerSolver is known for its comprehensive game tree-solving capabilities, particularly for multiway pots. Works in Spanish, Hindi, German, and more. It is one of the top poker tools used by pro players. Maximize Your Winnings: A Guide to Game Theory Optimal (GTO) Poker. Bart Shirley January 26, 2021. MonkerSolver. Hello Forum, Does anyone know where I can find some GTO preflop fixed limit holdem ranges for preflop play? I looking for them all over the internet buThis website uses cookies to ensure you get the best experience on our website. 正直なところ、MonkerSolverについてはpreflopの計算にちょこっと使っただけであんまり良くわかってません。 Features. Monkersolver Ranges Home Shop Monkersolver Ranges. Monker Solver; GTO+; Poker solvers have other powerful features but they are primarily used in the way described above. Vision creator Matthias Pum shows you how to run river simulations with the free version of Monkersolver. Monker Solver; GTO+; The costs and benefits of each solver varies quite a bit, so you should research each before choosing one. 7（2020年1月31日），这个软件内置的Training可能是GTO+最具实用性的功能，是目前AI训练的最好选择之一。与Pokersnowie的TrainingV2. After you check (as you should with around half of your range, according to Monker Solver), your opponent puts in a half pot-sized bet, which you call. pdf), Text File (. Online Poker Sites & Marketplaces. com offers a full tutorial for MonkerSolver 2. l4j or vice versa), it starts just fine except for saying I only have 0. Monkersolver to PIOSolver Automation. Whether you’re looking for software that can help improve your strategy or poker tools that can analyze your. Liked by: 02-11-2020, 05:08 PM MiamMiam. 25bb RFI, 7. - GM functions are supported. SPH calculates optimal strategies for a given tree of bets and input ranges for the specified number of players (from 2 to 10) in different preflop situations. 1) Buy monkersolver and construct range its easy to make preflop rangAnalysis of your preflop frequencies mapped against GTO frequencies (derived from Monker Solver preflop sims). Monker I believe is the most versatile of them all allowing for multi-way solving but fuck me if you have enough ram for that stuff. Does monker solver work on Mac? Windows 64-bit or Mac OS X with atleast 8 GB RAM. This innovation also allowed multiway preflop solving, a considerable step forward for us 6max grinders as suddenly (albeit with numerous quite considerable abstractions) it was possible to simulate and find. . The learning curve is very high, and even for an expert setting up a new GTO (Game Theory. We ran the sims for you so you didn’t have to, and simplified for the most optimal bet sizing and minimal bet sizing options, with minimal EV loss. I was looking at all the solvers available. A solver is a powerful piece of poker software that calculates ‘optimal’ strategies (called solutions) for user-inputted scenarios. To give MonkerSolver more memory you will need to: MonkerSolver and MonkerViewer are game theory optimal poker tools developed by monkerware. Basically, the same thing that you can do in Monker by right clicking on the top of the column. 610b165c570f6306) Discord: (or alexandr#0234) Telegram:Now if you are only going to do small sims, with 1-2 betsizings narrow ranges or 3bet pot analysis (lower SPR simplifies the sim), and stick to 100bb poker (more complex the deeper the stacks again). 1. Join Zenith Poker for free access to advanced poker theory, cutting-edge preflop ranges, postflop solutions, and group tutorials. Hero stats. r/poker •. . Join Zenith Poker for free access to advanced poker theory, cutting-edge preflop ranges, postflop solutions, and group tutorials. Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 17,328. SPOILER. Monkersolver Poker. i click on monker solver and nothing happens The file will only open up if i delete the -Xms2g file. MonkerSolver "Keep avg strategy on (streets)" I started using the trial version of monker solver to do my own sims and have a questions about the "Keep avg strategy on (streets)" option. Solve Hold'em and Omaha from any street, with any number of players. If you can't, you should increase the -Xmx to a higher value. Simulations that don’t sufficiently converge will produce unreliable and more exploitable results. Quote: Originally Posted by MonkerWare. Simple 3-Way – Price: $249. They're made with products specifically designed to solve preflop, like Monkersolver and Simple Preflop. He developed the Advanced Solver Ranges by using the following inputs in Monker Solver: No calling in HJ/CO/SB. Posted 2 years ago. We're going to p. 25% Off PADS ON PADS + KNOCKOUT MASTERY. Fried then took the outputted ranges and went over them thoroughly, simplifying the overall strategy. Most pros consider anything worse than 0. Abstraction. The course uses Monker solver to develop all the ranges (preflop RFI ranges, 3-Betting & Squeezing, and 4-Betting & 5-Betting) and includes over 36 hours of pot limit Omaha theory. We got the opportunity to interview Professional Poker Player, Ben_Apart, who recently won $120,000 in a Sunday Million PokerStars tournament. ago. You can drill specific actions like c-betting on the flop or you can play full hands through to the river. You can browse, download, or order custom preflop charts, sims, and files for your specific game and situation. You should see the folder ‘monkersolver-setup’. MonkerSolver. You could try opening a new instance of Monkersolver and making sure the window is sized the same and then see if you can click where the save button should be and then save that way (simply perform the actions required analogous. ranges/Hold’em/6-way. Get Access the guide ranges servers trees Log In. Liked by: 07-18-2017, 12:33 PM WillyT. I strongly recommend against mimicking unexploitable PLO strategies in most PLO games, though. Right-click the root node, choose "Add to all->custom filter. 5K views 3 years ago. For pot limit Omaha tree how do make it so bet committal threshold is 50% of pot. The other reccomendation with getting a PIO trial is useless because pio cannot run PLO sims, and they are exponentially larger than NLHE sims which requires both more RAM and more CPU power or time to run. Originally Posted by thegibson. Learn exactly how wide Volatile Fish open and defend preflop, and which bet/raise sizings to target. Monkersolver doesn't scale that well with high thread counts and multiple-socket CPU setups, so there is a trade-off there. netSome of the most popular poker solvers are PioSolver, Simple Postflop, Monker Solver and GTO+. The Pack was solved using subset of 184 flops. Actions can be merged together in editor ( pic ). 75bb from SB, 11. 25bb 3-bet, 23. Hello everybody! Today we release new version of Simple 3-Way GTO Solver v1. Instead, the term ε-nash equilibrium is used to denote strategies which. To the best of my knowledge, MonkerSolver was the first to support multiway solving (i. Hello guys. MonkerSolver and MonkerViewer are game theory optimal poker tools developed by monkerware. Any advice on how to proceed from here would be very much appreciated. Online Poker Sites & Marketplaces. In both instances they get to a volatility of 2. Informative set of metrics in reports is very useful and excessive source of information for game analysis. It should look like this: Im trying to get a 6 max solution for 6max play, and don't know where to start, there isn't like an easy to use tutorial that I have seen and ive looked all over. Solve any Master Mind game from your pocket. Restart MonkerSolver. Path & "" & filename. The Reasons. Preflop. Anyways, does MonkerSolver hold all of the RAM-memory that it works with, or could one dump the memory that it isn't holding up? To run bigger trees with less memory. This is easy to verify on this example taking a look on EV of Players: sum of EV of two players is = -0. Most things. Does any have a resource or would be willing to teach me?Poker simulations, (piosolver, monker solver, simple GTO trainer). It works on browsers with WebExtensions support. To give MonkerSolver more memory you will need to: Open MonkerSolver. 01-06-2023 , 08:07 PM. I play plo. It includes the 4-Card PLO Trainer web app which runs in-browser and has different features. Downloads: Access to Preflop Charts, Postflop Shortcuts and other Downloadable resources. However, after navigating to the river, MonkerSolver could then re-solve and take into account missed flushes. POSTED Apr 08, 2021. In this video, we're going to take a look at a key hand 3-handed in the Super Tuesday on PokerStars involving Johannes 'Greenstone25' Korsar. RTA software reads data from poker tables from screen and can work at another computer and therefore it is sa. Was told solver needs CPU and nearly scales 1 to 1 with cores and base frequency. what to look for in a sim etc. r/poker. Node locking in monker or simple omaha. The MonkerSolver support team is unresponsive so I hope to get an answer here. I am wondering what other solvers people are using a Omaha Solver Recommendations/Advice Discussions - Small Stakes Pot Limit Omaha -. A very fast GTO solver for Holdem. Employee communication. 3-bet to 9. Started working with Monker Solver and PPT syntax is essential for reviewing sims, especially in PLO. In order to proceed, you will need to have the installation file for Mac OS on your server. l4j. It has less interface features than the above two solvers. I also don't understand monker viewer from monker solver. In the folder you've chosen to install MonkerSolver you will find a file called MonkerSolver. In this series, we’ll teach you everything you need to know about installing,. 28. Solvers don’t do multi-way anyway. The creators used three 512gb servers and ran simulations on them continuously for months to create the most accurate possible ranges for the PLO Matrix. Then I was planning on trying some other fuction of Monkersolver, It just cant open anymore. If anybody has interesting multiway hands, send me all parameters (stacks, rake, bets sizes and exact ranges) and I will run it for you in Monker solver for free. The size of trees solvable will scale with available RAM, and computation time will scale with CPU speed. 0 is out! Read more. View Profile Send Message Find Posts By WillyT Find Threads By WillyT. com telegram: @cheaPPoker skype: Elite Poker Guide in search (or live:. Pio has slightly better scripting functionality (which is what I am mainly use it for anyway). Learn how to use MonkerSolver, the world's best poker solver, to create optimal and exploitative strategy for Hold'em, Omaha and Omaha-8. MonkerSolver BB vs BTN minraise (25bb) Pio BB vs BTN minraise (25bb) - BTN on MonkerSolver 3-way open range People with questions about performance, what can be calculated, how to calculate it, where to rent servers, etc, are welcome to join the MonkerSolver Hangout Skype group (unofficial group where we figure things out and.